Premier (Dave Rose): Let me start by asking you, how have you defined the word 'evangelism'?
ABC: Evangelism is communicating the good news that Jesus calls for people to be his disciple, and that that call, when answered, is the best thing that can ever happen to anyone in their life, under any circumstances, anywhere in the world.
Premier: And do you think that the average Anglican, or the average Christian even, in the UK right now, is actually able to explain the Gospel clearly?
ABC: That's a really perceptive question. If you go back to 1944, 45, there was a report by Church of England Commission, called 'Towards the Conversion of England'. One of the things it said, I'm not quoting it exactly, but it's one of the themes in it, is that while every Christian fails to be a witness, we will fail to move towards the conversion of England. I think that's a fair summary. There are lots of other very good points, but that was one of the points. I think there are lots of people who can communicate the Gospel clearly. But, we need to recognise that we're all witnesses, and we need all to be equipped to be witnesses. That doesn't mean, one of the problems with it is, I think we professionalised evangelism, clericalised it, in some places, but professionalised it. You know, unless you're one of those folks who does this for a living, you can't do it. And that's exactly the opposite of the pattern you'll find in the scriptures, and at the best points of the tradition. And, it's a nonsense. And, so, the answer to your question is no, I don't think that's the case at the moment, that every Christian knows how to communicate the Gospel clearly, but I know every Christian can, because I was taught to.
Premier: So let me ask you then, if, imagine I'm a non-Christian, and if I were to say to you, "Archbishop, explain the Gospel to me in 30 seconds", what would you say?
ABC: I'd go straight in simple language to John's Gospel, chapter three, verse sixteen. And, say "there's a problem with human beings, which is that we don't know God, one way or another there's a barrier between us and God. God has solved the problem, and it's open to us to take that solution into our lives by opening our lives to his presence. And the bible says that God so loved the world, because this is about life, that he gave, because it's him taking the action, his only son, Jesus Christ, He Himself. So that all who believe in Him, that's just put the weight of lives on Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. This is about hope, it's positive, it's really good".
Premier: Bearing in mind what you were saying earlier about how we've professionalised in some ways, evangelism. There was a recent survey, a YouGov poll for the Times, 22% of UK Christians have said that they struggle with this area, with talking about their faith. So what do we need to do? Do we need to talk about it more in church? Do we need to go back to the scriptures? You know, how do we deal with this issue?
ABC: I'm surprised it's as low as 22%. I think we start by unpacking the reasons for fear. And there are lots of those, and the best way, I remember a course we did at, when I was a parish priest, that really made a difference with people, in a very standard church setting, and it was a course run by CPS, at the time, called 'Lost for Words'. It was very, very good. And it started by talking about people's fears and hangups, for example, the hangup that somehow in any conversation, they have to lead people from total disinterest in believing in God, to sort of being just about to offer themselves for ordination, you know, it's, yeah, I'm exaggerating, but they have, the whole path is there. One of the things we learned together, and I found it transforming, as a vicar, was, that the role of a witness to Jesus Christ is to take someone they're talking to or listening to, the next appropriate step for that person, I mean, you asked me to sum up the Gospel in 30 seconds, just now, actually, that's very seldom appropriate. What's normally appropriate is to listen very carefully for the questions you're being asked, and answer them, not the questions you're not being asked. So one question is, one hangup people have is, "Oh golly, I've got to do the whole thing, and I've got to be able to answer all the questions on suffering, on you know, why did this happen, why does that happen". Another one is, frankly, I think for quite a lot of people, and I include myself from time to time, we lose sight of how wonderful the good news is. We share the good news, not because it's a duty and we have to go home just before we go to bed, and think, okay, tick box, did share good news today. But because we're so consumed with knowing how wonderful Jesus is, that we want to talk to others about that. Answering their questions, not just pushing our solution.
Premier: And tonight, you're going to speak about evangelism not being a growth strategy. This isn't just about bums on seats in churches and getting numbers up, but I guess numbers are a reasonable measure of how we're doing in terms of church attendance, and church attendance does continue to struggle in some areas, particularly with young people. How do we try to make sure we up our game as a church, when it comes to reaching out to young people?
ABC: Again, it's another very good question, and I'm probably not the greatest expert on this. I think, first of all, it's not that easy. It's perfectly doable, and you see lots of churches who do it. There needs to be an absolute integrity about the church. We don't, we mustn't pretend to be what we're not, have answers we don't have, to be people we're not. We mustn't deny our own faults and failures, as a church. You know, there've been, there are so many well-known definitions of evangelism, one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread is a very old one, goes back to the 1950s, I'm not entirely happy with it, in some ways, but it's the kind of thing we're talking about. So, when we're talking about reaching young people, integrity, holiness, fasting and prayer. Again, ask, answering the questions we're asked, not the ones we're not asked. Demonstrating that we are communities who love and care for each other. Evangelism isn't that difficult, but growing churches is very hard work. I also want to just challenge the premise of your question a bit. It's not that evangelism isn't only a growth strategy, evangelism isn't a growth strategy. Evangelism is something that springs out of the nature of who God is. God sends us out with seed to sow. He causes the seed to grow. He sends us or others to reap a harvest. This is something, this going out, and bringing in, this motion, this cycle of going out and bringing in, Jesus born among us, going out, bringing in. The Holy Spirit, sending the disciples out, bringing people in. It's a pattern of God's action, this is intrinsic to the nature of God. If we're going to be a church that reflects the nature of God, we will be a church that goes out, and brings in. Growth is a collateral benefit, but it's not a sign we're doing it right.
Premier: One of the issues that young people, I guess, have, or that we have when we evangelise to young people or anybody, is that we perceive our culture now to be more secular than it's been in the past, certainly the recent past, perhaps. Do you think people are as open to evangelism as they have been in the past?
ABC: It depends which day you ask me that question, as to which answer you get, if I'm really honest. I really struggle with that. You could argue that go back fifty years, a hundred years, a hundred and fifty years, that we were more hypocritical then, than we are now. There was more emotional observance. But we weren't necessarily more spiritual. On other days, you look at it and think, no, no, no, that's wrong. We were more spiritual. I'm not sure I know the answer to the question, what I do know is that when we pray, when we seek to live to walk in the light. One John. One has it, the great phrase taken up in the East African revival. When we walk in the light, when we pray, when we're close to Jesus, people become Christians. They become disciples of Jesus Christ, and that's wonderful. And when we don't pray, and don't walk in the light, and get into all kinds of other things, we don't. So, I don't know the answer to your question, in a sense it's very hard to measure what's going on in people's hearts. But, I see churches all over the place, in all kinds of places, which in small numbers, in large numbers, very occasionally, very often, see people coming to faith in Christ.
Premier: And I guess what we're faced with now, as Christians, is we see in our culture some very strong Atheist voices, challenging God, opposing God, Stephen Fry just a few weeks ago, very high profile. I think a lot of Christians would just kind of feel stumped in the face of that, that sort of onslaught, and I wonder how you would, how you would respond to the statements that Stephen Fry was making just a few weeks ago?
ABC: I think I'd agree entirely with what Rowan Williams said on Newsnight a few nights later, that Stephen Fry was pretty vehement, but try looking at Job or Lamentations or some of the psalms, you'll find things that are just as in God's face, real, honest expression of rage, of complaint, of lament as Stephen Fry expressed. And, I think that one of the perplexities and wonders of the love of God and Jesus Christ is He makes space for us, to shout back. We have free will. Yes, the Atheist voices are strong at the moment. They've been very strong in the past. You know, Russian revolution, French revolution, much of the Enlightenment, Scottish Enlightenment, in particular. You'll find all kinds of times when what was called Rationalism, or was very very powerful. And, there's one or two universities in the country that when they were founded by particular groups in the 19th century, it was in their founding documents, they couldn't have chapels. You know, this is, we just have to be real. We, and we aren't fighting Atheists. Let's just be really straight. There's something, funnily enough, I was praying about this this morning, because, I don't know, I think I was a bit reminded of it, when I was praying, and it's a good reminder for me, you know, Paul says to the Ephesians, our battle isn't against flesh and blood, it's against principalities, and powers. And so, in the Heavenly places, and people interpret that differently, but the key thing is, it's not against flesh and blood. Our enemies aren't the Atheists. God loves them. Jesus died for them. So it's a good pattern for us.
Premier: One of the things that you seem very keen to emphasise in the lecture this evening is the role of the Holy Spirit when it comes to evangelism, of course. And I wonder, in your own life, as a, as a priest, as a vicar, just as a Christian, as you have engaged in evangelism in your own life, I wonder if you have any stories about how the Holy Spirit has maybe prompted you, or helped you in any evangelism that you've engaged in?
ABC: Well, I can think of one particular case, a very, I wasn't aware that question was coming really, it just always looms large in my mind where, I was sort of bailed out by the work of the Spirit, really. It was when I was at university, and there was a mission going, about to go, or, there was a mission going on. And there was a particular person who I'd been praying for, for a while, and wanted to ask along, and I just didn't have the nerve. I was so terrified by the prospect, I kept sort of going to have a cup of tea with him, and I'm sure wondered what, what's this guy doing, you know, suddenly turning up for cups of tea, or asking me for cups of tea. Anyway, we were talking one day, this guy bumped into me in the library one day, and he said, which was rare enough, in its own right, for me to be in the library, and he said, "I hear there's some kind of mission going on", and I said, "Oh yes, there is". And he said, "Do they explain what Christianity's about?" I said, "Oh yes, that's the main thing". "Is there any way I could go along?" So I said, "I could probably arrange that, would you like to come with me?" And I just thought afterwards, you, you muppet. You know, of all the, so that's one example, God is good, all the time, as they say. You know, the Holy Spirit is at work, doing extraordinary things. It doesn't mean we always wait, it comes back to answering the questions we're asked and not the ones we're not asked. Trusting that the Holy Spirit is taking people the right, at the right pace, and with the love that embraces them from God, not with the kind of manipulation that people are tempted into, all of us are. And that, that's why we pray.
Premier: Just one final question, because I can imagine a lot of Christians listening to this are going to be wondering, they are going to be particularly concerned, I think, about showing their faith in the workplace. We've seen a lot of stories lately, some quite high profile cases of how people have been really challenged by employers, it seems, when they have tried to do that. What advice or counsel, or words, would you have for people who actually, when it comes to showing their faith at work, are terrified of the implications of doing that?
ABC: Yeah, and I understand that very, very well. Remember I worked in secular employment for a long time. Well, I'm going to sound like a cracked record here, but this comes back to 1 Peter 3, always be ready to give an explanation, a reason for the hope that is within you. But with respect, and gentleness, depending on your translation. Answer the questions you are asked, not the ones you are not asked. Pray, and you will be astonished at what happens. Years and years ago, I used to, when I was still in the oil industry, and I was doing a particular project, and travelling around with one of my colleagues, all over Europe and we spent hours sitting at airports, waiting for aeroplanes and so on, and sit in the bar and have a couple of beers, and you know, chat. And he asked questions, from time to time, about the Christian faith, he was absolutely not a Christian. And, I was always looking for ways of sort of saying something, but I think just by the grace of God didn't particularly, I just answered what he asked. Anyway, I moved on, he moved on, I thought that's the last I'll hear of him. About five or six years after I got ordained, I was, I'd bumped into someone who I'd known at work, who said, "Oh, do you remember X?", I said "Oh yes", he said, "Oh, he sends his best wishes, he's working at such and such a place now. You know he told you, he told me to tell you that he became a Christian". And I said "Did he?", he said "Oh yeah, he said it was all those talks in airports". I said, "I never said anything", you know, God is a lot better at this stuff than we are, we just need to be ready to be the witnesses he calls us to be.